TRIAL Political Thread

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BazzBass
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by BazzBass » 06 Dec 2018, 11:32

not going there.....
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noplanb
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by noplanb » 06 Dec 2018, 19:22

"more protections needed for people doing things under a religious banner "
- I'm glad you said that, because that is not what Uncle William Cooper was marching to the German embassy about - it was actually about abuse of power to permit persecution - and as we know from history, laws persecuting these groups then did follow..
An example:
In the movie 'Comedian Harmonists' (famous German vocal group), there is a scene from about 1933(?) where a Jewish shopowner is lamenting the vandalisation of his shop-front. Bystanders were not sympathetic - finally, two of the Berlin constabulary walk up, and the shopowner explains the situation, and that he served in the trenches in the Great War; however, the constables start smiling and say to the effect he is just a Jew, and what should he expect?
Both police and bystanders accepted the persecution.
So it begins with "its ok to boycott/ostracise businesses that disagree with (my) 'community standards' " -then goes to "its their own fault if they get vandalised - what do you expect?"
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packrat
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by packrat » 06 Dec 2018, 20:30

I see you’re attempting to link boycotting of a magazine business hell bent on persecuting gay marriage with the excesses of a regime which also persecuted gay people. I suggest you have that exactly backwards.

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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by PilbaraBass » 07 Dec 2018, 11:19

BazzBass wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 11:32
not going there.....
I was baiting you... :D :poke:
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by PilbaraBass » 07 Dec 2018, 11:27

packrat wrote:
06 Dec 2018, 20:30
I see you’re attempting to link boycotting of a magazine business hell bent on persecuting gay marriage with the excesses of a regime which also persecuted gay people. I suggest you have that exactly backwards.
I think the term "persecution" needs to be carefully examined.
To disagree with a group or members of a group is not in itself persecution.

To treat a person as sub-human, or to discriminate, harm or bully a person for being a member of a group IS persecution.

Furthermore, those who hold an idea that may be aligned with a group that performs persecution does not in itself make those persecutors. This is particularly true if those who are aligned ideologically, disagree with the persecution.

In short, persecution is an action, not an idea.

IMO, there is entirely too much thought policing going on and it offends the very core of what makes us human...that is, the ability to be free-thinking.
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BazzBass
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by BazzBass » 07 Dec 2018, 11:51

PilbaraBass wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 11:27
IMO, there is entirely too much thought policing going on and it offends the very core of what makes us human...that is, the ability to be free-thinking.

uh yup !
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noplanb
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by noplanb » 07 Dec 2018, 13:14

"In short, persecution is an action, not an idea"
:thumbup:
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vin-tone
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by vin-tone » 07 Dec 2018, 14:22

It seems the issue is that they had nasty things said to them online - possibly threats. This is awful and there's no excusing it. BUT.... Online bullying is nothing new and these people are only one of MANY who are targets. Woman tolerate much worse abuse than this on a daily basis.

But a few bullies aside - The magazine was singled out and boycotted because of their stance which was intolerant.

In other news - I have 2 friends getting married tomorrow - both women - one drummer and one art teacher... and they have a daughter who is lucky to have 2 amazing creative and loving parents. :thumbup:
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noplanb
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by noplanb » 07 Dec 2018, 20:21

"boycotted because of their stance which was intolerant."
My original general comment about businesses ostracised or boycotted was not just about the 'White' magazine. There have been a number of examples of deliberate targetting, eg a subcontractor dismissed because she expressed she disagreed with SSM on her FB page, an officer in ADF Reserve dismissed for expressing a similar private view on FB, etc.
None of these folk 'did' anything to anyone- they just held an opinion.
Specifically as regards the magazine, the other side of the 'why' were they boycotted, may also well be because these advertisers were afraid of being boycotted/targetted themselves if they didn't!
I find it all rather silly if it wasn't someone losing their business - ie, consider in the US - are all wedding magazines forced to include afro-american weddings, islamic weddings, etc? Or do entrepreneurs there set up their own magazines? Perhaps what is needed is a state-controlled/regulated wedding magazine code? -crazy.
I don't see an end to this sort of thing - once state-based anti-discrimination tribunals become more powerful, it will be easy for any person/office/business to be denounced because they did not kowtow to exactly how activists want them to behave. This is the 'freedom' found in totalitarian regimes.
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narcdor
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by narcdor » 08 Dec 2018, 08:23

Cricket Australia and views on abortion below for another example. Targeting and bullying are widespread online and this drives reactionary and protective behaviour, which in itself is not a great direction to head as it becomes mob rule. Until there is a way to regulate and protect from the online mob and social media divides into extremes this will continue happening. It's bigger than any one topic.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-07-30/ ... s/10051972

https://www.theguardian.com/technology/ ... iety-apart
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noplanb
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by noplanb » 08 Dec 2018, 09:16

^So yes, the tools are there for easy social denouncement. Then it may be weaponised by organised manipulators in a position to do so, depending on their goals and ideology.
As I mentioned once before, it has happened in ancient Athens - the 'democratic' forum of Sophists (good, persuasive speakers) may be paid to set the tone, someone calls for a vote against someone in power/commerce, and citizens mark their pottery shards with the name of the person they wish to ostracise - the shards being called 'ostraca'. These are collected and counted and due penalty is carried out.
All very quaint, but it highlights something else: democracy works well only when citizens can appeal to a universal truth to judge their leaders by, and take action accordingly. If 'community standards' 'truth' is based on either a falsehood, or false dealing (which is inevitably subsumed to self-interest), then yes - we have mob rule.
(That is why the Athenian democracy experiment failed, and single powerful leaders were subsequently voted in - known as 'Tyrants' - a neutral term to them)
Moral reawakening to the value of truth is associated with better government and prosperity in our western history.
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noplanb
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by noplanb » 08 Dec 2018, 09:42

Here is part of a eleventh-hour response from a number of Christian groups to Labor's proposed amendments to the Sex Discrimination Act:
"the Bill – if passed without the suite of amendments proposed by the Government – goes well beyond its stated aim. For example, in the amendment to s 37 of the Sex Discrimination Act proposed by Labor, anti-discrimination law would extend beyond the schoolyard and into churches, synagogues, mosques and temples nationwide wherever their actions are ‘connected with the provision … of education’, censoring doctrines that are thousands of years in the making. This is an extraordinary and unprecedented incursion on religious freedom in this country."
And bizarrely:
"The Bill does not provide students the ability to be notified of the beliefs of a school."
https://www.eternitynews.com.au/austral ... ience-vote
(PS the bill was withdrawn)
Our esteemed Vee may have some further background info! ;)
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packrat
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by packrat » 08 Dec 2018, 11:40

Oh no. Taking away the exceptions for churches to illegally discriminate against and persecute groups they don’t like? An end to civilization.

The next thing you know, they’ll have to admit gay people are actually human and have rights. It’s the thin end of the wedge. What about western civilization. What about all the amazing cultural efforts of fish and chip shop owners.

Etc.

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BazzBass
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by BazzBass » 08 Dec 2018, 11:49

vin-tone wrote:
07 Dec 2018, 14:22
In other news - I have 2 friends getting married tomorrow - both women - one drummer and one art teacher... and they have a daughter who is lucky to have 2 amazing creative and loving parents. :thumbup:

whilst celebrating their right to marry and raise a child, I still believe that without a male role model, the kid is not getting the full deal. "can be" a biased upbringing imho ymmv.
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packrat
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Re: TRIAL Political Thread

Post by packrat » 08 Dec 2018, 12:24

Quite a few people with one parent might take extreme issue with that position.

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